Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football

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Video Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football

Several Texas Longhorns football individual games nominated for deletion

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2005 Texas vs. Ohio State football game (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2005 Oklahoma vs. Texas football game
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Texas vs. Oklahoma State football game
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2008 Texas vs. Oklahoma football game

Just commenting so this post can be archived when the timestamp mandates it.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:09, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Maps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football

Proposed page move of Gridiron football

A move proposal affecting this project has been made at Talk:Gridiron football#Requested move 4 October 2017. The requested new title is North American football. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 09:38, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

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How do you guys handle recruiting classes on team season pages?

Hi guys - I was looking at recruiting classes on recent college basketball articles and saw that in some cases (see example) multiple recruiting classes are being listed, as opposed to just the one coming in for a given season. This led me to wonder how you all addressed recruiting and a spot check of a few teams showed that recruiting isn't consistently added at all - it was there for last year's Alabama team for example, but not for Florida. Just curious if you have any guidance on this? I am trying to get a consensus discussion going here). Any thoughts on this topic? Thanks in advance. Rikster2 (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

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Northern Arizona Lumberjacks navbox

Any objection to a significant change to Template:Northern Arizona Lumberjacks football navbox? The school's name has changed several times in its history. According to the school's website there have been five names (http://library.nau.edu/speccoll/exhibits/first100/Trivia/namechange.html)

Here's what I would propose for the navbox, but obviously looking for input / concurrence:

• 1899-1924 Northern Arizona Normal
• 1925-1928 Northern Arizona State Teachers
• 1929-1944 Arizona State Teachers (Flagstaff)
• 1945-1965 Arizona State College (Flagstaff)
• 1966 & on Northern Arizona

Ocfootballknut (talk) 06:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Ocfootballknut, do you know when the "Lumberjacks" fight name was adopted? Does it go all the way back to 1899? Jweiss11 (talk) 07:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

What is the exact change to the display?--Bagumba (talk) 11:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Bagumba, the display wouldn't changed, but the historical season links would reflect former school/team names. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Apparently, both the football team and the nickname go back to 1915. I agree that the seasons before 1966 should have the proper names, with redirects for the anachronisms like "1915 Northern Arizona". Cake (talk) 03:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Sorry I didn't respond sooner ... I forgot where I had put this question !!Ocfootballknut (talk) 05:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

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Help regarding which is the more appropriate wordmark for San Jose State

Please see Talk:San Jose State Spartans#Second opinion. Arbor to SJ (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

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Discussion regarding the birth date and birth place parameters of Infobox college football player

See discussion. Thanks. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 18:36, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

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College Football Data Warehouse

So, it's back online? WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 20:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I've seen this movie one too many times. It's time we moved on from CFDW. Sports Reference has just as much info and doesn't go offline every other month. Lizard (talk) 21:31, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

There is a lot of data at the College Football Data Warehouse that is entirely missing from Sports Reference. But CFDW, as functional website, has not been reliable. David DeLassus told me he was shutting the site down a few months ago. But now it's back. No idea what gives there. Jweiss11 (talk)

Looks like it's now being run by one William Goodyear. See the very bottom of the CFDW homepage. Lizard (talk) 22:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm with Lizard. And it's not just going offline for months at a time; it has had a history of being taken over by viruses as well. For things where SR/College Football works, it's the far more reliable choice. If SR/College football doesn't cover it, media guides should be our second option. CFDW is just not sufficiently reliable to be one of this project's "go to" sources. Cbl62 (talk) 22:43, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Does ANYBODY have anything to say about this even as a sumplimental source?UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Other than the webpage nearly triggering my latent epilepsy? Not really. Lizard (talk) 02:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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CFP rankings

In tables with team schedules, should CFP rankings precede AP rankings after week 9? It would seem logical, since ever since 2014 the CFP rankings are the ones that actually matter.Eccekevin (talk) 03:03, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I support this. Kobra98 (talk) 03:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

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Michigan State-Ohio State football rivalry

Thoughts? The games have been pretty fierce the past few years but - well, that's what happens when two good football teams regularly meet. JohnInDC (talk) 17:25, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

It's a nice Christmas-themed article, if nothing else. Lizard (talk) 17:37, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

And it appears that's all it is. A google search is bringing up absolutely nothing to support that this a rivalry. Send the article to the paper shredder. Lizard (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

My initial reaction was skeptical, but see this article from CBS Sports ranking MSU-OSU as the #1 modern college football rivalry. There's also this. Cbl62 (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

If this rivalry is notable, someone needs to expand it... otherwise, delete it! Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 23:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

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Bear Bryant's 1950 championship with Kentucky

There's been a constant back-and-forth for over a year in the infobox of Bear Bryant on whether or not to include Kentucky's 1950 championship. Opposer(s) say the NCAA doesn't recognize the 1950 title by Kentucky. Yet the university claims it, and usually that's what we go by, no matter how ridiculous. So the question is: in coaching infoboxes, do we include championships recognized by the NCAA, or those claimed by the university? This could also extend to coaching tables. Lizard (talk) 17:31, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I say only if we recognize Oklahoma A&M's nonsensical AFCA title?UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I can't say much about 1950 Kentucky in particular. Looks like they beat Oklahoma, the easy choice for #1, leaving no top teams undefeated. However, it seems to me one should go with those recognized by the NCAA at least/at first, and preferably both the school and the NCAA. Though it probably recognizes a few too many, for purposes of avoiding OR we had to use the NCAA with the national champion navbox. As to why preferably both, one can think of several examples where what the NCAA recognizes clashes with what the school and fans recognize; does Galen Hall deserve a national title on his resume for 1984? Does Edgar Wingard deserve one on his for 1908? or Dan McGugin for 1921 and 1922? Vandy should probably claim 1941. The Florida football page regularly has its unclaimed titles removed as illegitimate, and any titles of a certain age (e. g. 1908, not 1950) not given to a northern team are highly suspect. Cake (talk) 21:37, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I always found it odd that we emphasize national championships claimed by universities over officially recognized ones, as it seems like a blatant disregard for the fact that universities are primary sources. Lizard (talk) 22:03, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

You're disregarding the fact that universities only claim a national championship if someone else awards them one, which means that there's always a secondary source as well. As ridiculous as many see Oklahoma State's claimed NC for 1945, they were awarded it by the AFCA, a secondary source. Kobra98 (talk) 23:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ So far no one has answered the original question, so I'll repeat it: in coaching infoboxes, do we include championships recognized by the NCAA, or those claimed by the university? Lizard (talk) 23:26, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I vote those by the university, because those are really the only "official" championships in FBS. Kobra98 (talk) 00:09, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

• I don't know what rule, if any, has been applied to coach infoboxes, but I have tried to impose some discipline on such claims in season article infoboxes. My view there is that the best way to handle the "national champion" claim is to (a) limit the designation to NCAA-recognized selectors, and (b) be specific about selectors so that a weak claim can be distinguished from a strong one. Compare 1933 Princeton with 1933 Michigan or 1935 LSU with 1935 Minnesota or 1927 Yale with 1927 Illinois. While such detail can't be replicated in a coaching chart, perhaps we could add an explanatory footnote in coaching charts where "national champion" claims are not clear-cut. Cbl62 (talk) 00:14, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

In the case of 1950 Kentucky, the result would be the same since Sagarin (who picked Kentucky) is an NCAA-recognized selector. Cbl62 (talk) 00:22, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

This is a prime example of hitching the ox cart before we put anything on there. I was indirectly answering the original question. If a school has a nat'l title claim, and a recognized claim regardless of how bogus some of them are, we should be consistent across the board and list it as such without qualifiers. If a school doesn't recognize it such as the several that Oklahoma doesn't then it shouldn't be recognized here. The only way it should be noted with a caveat would be vacated titles such as 04 SC or 89 Mississippi College.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:37, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I didn't follow the whole ox cart/hitching analogy, but I assume you are not suggesting that we let individual schools be the sole arbiters of national championship claims. Wikipedia is intended to be an objective resource that does not merely regurgitate a school's objective claim to be #1. We need an independent and objective method of assessing such claims, and limiting the claims to NCAA-recognized selectors seems like the best course in terms both of independence and objectivity. Cbl62 (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I can see how you could have misinterpreted what I meant. I meant to say "recognized AND claimed." if wikipedia consensus says to list it as a nat'l title then list it across the board. If it shouldn't be listed on the UK pages then, no it shouldn't be listed even on the coach page. ONLY when it has been taken away would I suggest a notification about it.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

What exactly are we using to determine which selectors are "recognized" by the NCAA? The NCAA record book lists every random joe in his basement with a computer, while this list is much more selective. Lizard (talk) 00:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I was referring to the official NCAA record book. I am unclear on the list you linked; I've only seen it recently and don't know when, how, why, or by whom it was created. Cbl62 (talk) 01:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+I agree with the list but then we are already out of whack with it. 25 Dartmouth, inluding the 1919 Centre who "won" based upon said Sagrin ratings.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:22, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if there was no "official" NCAA-recognized list of selectors. Or that they'd even care to have one. I lost faith in the NCAA's record keeping while working on List of unanimous All-Americans in college football (see note b on that article). Ultimately it'll have to come down to our judgement. The record book is extremely inclusive with its champion selectors; I have yet to see a single case of a school claiming a championship from a selector that isn't included in the NCAA record book. Lizard (talk) 04:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

There is a reason why it was known as the "mythical national championship" in the days before the playoffs. The best we can do is to make sure that such claims are clear as to which selectors the claim is based on. Cbl62 (talk) 05:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Well the edit warring on Bear Bryant rages on. Do we have a consensus to include 1950 in the infobox or no? I say include. Lizard (talk) 05:57, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I say include as an SEC title, exclude as a national title. I can only appeal to past experience with other coaches and internal consistency, and not any particular knowledge about the 1950 Wildcats, so I am open to changing my opinion. First and foremost, and despite the Cats beating them, the NCAA recognizes the Sooners as champion, and that seems our only hope for an objective source on the matter. That should settle it. It is not even recognized by the NCAA. Though, even if it was by some minor selector, I think one should best leave it out. It would be absurd to include national championships in, say, McGugin's infobox. Cake (talk) 07:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Here's another one for you: how many national championships should Johnny Vaught be credited with? Lizard (talk) 08:14, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

That one is more difficult. I say just give him 1960. His HOF profile mentions the 1960 championship, and I suspect Ole Miss fans would do so as well. Again I can be swayed, but hard to imagine an argument for Miss over Syracuse in 1959, or for Miss over USC in 1962. Cake (talk) 08:53, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

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Schedule tables: State Abbreviations vs spelled out

What does everybody think of this edit and several others like it. Is there a policy we've been violating or an editor putting their own editorial preference in the schedule tables. @Jweiss11: @Corkythehornetfan: @Lizardthewizard: @Bagumba:. Do any of you know?UCO2009bluejay (talk) 18:00, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

MOS:POSTABBR states that postal abbreviations for states "should not be used to stand in for the full names in normal text", but I don't think that a schedule chart qualifies as "normal text". Cbl62 (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ping doesn't work when you add it into an old message. The Ping must be accompanied by a new signature/timestamp. And Colonies Chris is pretty much the only one I ever see making these edits, and I'm pretty sure he was responsible for someone bringing up this topic at least once before. Is spelling out state names specified in the MOS? Lizard (talk) 18:49, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Its been a while. I'm a bit rusty.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 19:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

MOS:ABBR also says abbreviations are OK in tables if space is tight. But space doesn't seem that tight here.--Bagumba (talk) 19:45, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Bagumba. Plus, I've never been a fan of abbreviating the states in the first place(!) and more recently I have been spelling out the months in the tables. Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 23:56, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The schedule tables are crowded already, and we should be looking for ways to make them less dense, especially avoiding modifications that force the text within cells to crawl to a second row. A schedule table where the cells don't crawl is far more readable. One thing Colonies Chris has been doing to ameliorate this problem is to eliminate the state altogether when the site is a major city like Miami where the article title does not include a state (e.g., this diff). However, the conversion of state postal codes into full state names has, in many cases, forced the "Site" cell to push into a second row. See 2002 Temple Owls football team, 2006 Rutgers Scarlet Knights football team, 2002 Marshall Thundering Herd football team, 2003 Marshall Thundering Herd football team, 2012 Nevada Wolf Pack football team, 2002 Ole Miss Rebels football team, 2001 UMass Minutemen football team. Both of the policies cited (MOS:POSTABBR and MOS:ABBR) say that use of abbreviations are fine in these situations. Cbl62 (talk) 14:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The standard formatting for the table is city with the state code, even for cities like Miami, where the state is not the article title, which should include the state code for tabular consistency. @Colonies Chris: we need to finally all get on the same page here. Can you please join this discussion? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

2017 Florida Gators football team sched table is wrapping on my phone, even with FL being used. Perhaps the wrapping solution is just to carriage return the city and state onto a separate line.--Bagumba (talk) 01:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

First of all, I'd like to clarify that expanding state abbreviations isn't the main purpose of my recent changes, it's just one part of a larger set of improvements, which includes: removing piping on stadium names so that redirects can work as intended; replacing the use of the {{alternative links}} template by redirects (creating appropriate redirects when necessary, e.g. 1971 Pioneer Bowl --> Pioneer Bowl): as mentioned above, removing the state entirely from well-known cities (per WP:USPLACE); replacing piped links to subsections by appropriate redirects (e.g. Vanderbilt Stadium#Old Dudley Field --> Old Dudley Field (a new redirect); replacing hyphens by endashes where appropriate (e.g. Carter-Finley Stadium --> Carter-Finley Stadium); and many other minor fixes.

The general WP attitude to abbreviations is that there are a few (such as US, UK, NATO, EU, etc) which are always acceptable; the rest are OK to use when space is limited. That isn't the case here. It's pretty much meaningless to say that a change has forced a table entry onto two lines, as that depends entirely on your current window width. Make it wider, and you'll be back to one line; make it narrower and the entire table will be forced below the infobox and use the full width, resulting in all entries appearing on a single line. With my usual window width, I sometimes find that the 'Opponent ' column breaks over two lines, and I haven't touched those at all, nor has anyone complained about them. I don't see that 'tabular consistency' is an issue here; it's really not likely that a reader will find the occasional absence of a superfluous state code from a major city to be an obstacle to understanding. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:58, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing in MOS that requires or even suggests removing State altogether from major cities. In addition to just having consistency, there is value to keeping them. In a roster, it shows if a program gets the majority of its players from a single state or are more of a national program ata aglacnce for the reader (may only apply to basketball as I don't know if football shows hometown), it shows if a program only schedules within its state in an easily scannable format, etc. I don't have a strong opinion on spelled out vs. abbreviation, but for college basketball articles I have been undoing these edits because project consensus has been for these to be present in infoboxes and templates and there is no guideline contradicting this. If you have "Baton Rogue, Louisiana" in a schedule table then you aren't actually helping crowding of the table to put "New Orleans" and drop "Louisiana" so that argument makes no sense. Rikster2 (talk) 15:04, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

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Princeton season articles

There is a requested move discussion underway at Talk:1869 Princeton Tigers football team to rename two dozen 19th century Princeton football season articles. Jenks24 (talk) 20:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

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converting college infobox to pro infobox

What is the consensus on converting college football navboxes to pro football navboxes after a player has graduated or is no longer a member of a college football team, but has either not pursued a professional career or just never got signed by a pro team? I feel strongly that all college football players who are no longer college football players should have their navboxes converted to a pro football navbox. The only exception I can think of is if a player medically retires or retires from football for any reason sometime during their college football career. But anyone that has completed their college football careers, whether they graduate, declare early for the draft, or have exhausted their college eligibility should have their college navboxes converted to a pro football navbox. Edday1051 (talk) 00:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Fully support. Basketball uses one template for all levels, Template:Infobox basketball biography, and avoids this conversion exercise altogether. Perhaps consensus can change for football as well.--Bagumba (talk) 00:58, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

If a player has never signed a professional contract, or otherwise pursued a professional football carer, then there is no need to convert to the pro football player infobox. This issue most prominently affects old-time players (Larry Kelley, Nile Kinnick, etc.) many of whom played before the NFL even existed. As for modern day players, if they haven't signed professionally, I say leave it alone. If they ever do pursue a pro career later, it can always be changed at that time. The issue of having different college and pro football infoboxes is a whole separate issue. Ejgreen77 (talk) 06:11, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I think it should be converted to the pro infobox, mainly because it shows the "undrafted year." Otherwise, they are essentially identical infoboxes. I think the "undrafted year" is pertinent enough to warrant the conversion to the pro infobox. As stated above, the only exception would be for those that retired from football for one reason or another in the middle of their college careers. I think those should keep the college infobox, but everyone else that has graduated, declared early for the draft, and or exhausted their college eligibility should have their infoboxes converted to the pro infobox, regardless of whether they pursue a professional career or not. Edday1051 (talk) 08:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Just for the record, this discussion is about infoboxes. I know you guys know that, just clarifying since people keep saying navbox. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 06:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

yeah sorry, I meant infoboxes, not navboxes. Edday1051 (talk) 08:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I'd be all for having a single infobox as Bagumba suggested. But if not, then I say maintain the current convention. The infobox is meant to highlight important aspects of a player's career; if a player is notable solely for their college career, like Abe Mickal or Doc Blanchard, then it makes more sense to use the college infobox since it contains fields that cater to them, like bowl games and major. Lizard (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support, but change name to Infobox football biography - I completely agree that it would be easier to just use one infobox. I'm pinging Jweiss11 since he major editor for this WikiProject and I think his input would be valuable. Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 02:46, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Corky, so you're suggesting that we merge Template:Infobox NFL biography with Template:Infobox college football player. What about Template:Infobox CFL biography? Jweiss11 (talk) 03:09, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Not sure what Edday1051 has in mind... he's the proposer... but that could easily be merged as well. I'm just supporting one infobox for all. Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 03:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Edday1051 never actually proposed a merge. He was talking about when the NFL infobox should be used as opposed to the college infobox. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 03:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Oops, thanks. I read Bagumba's comments and figured this is what it was about... I still support a merge, though, if it were to happen Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 03:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

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Notability of college football seasons

First thread

Hello there, I'd like to start a discussion about this project's standards for creating single season football team articles. The project's page says: "Single seasons can be considered notable. In this case the season must receive substantial non-routine coverage (see WP:ROUTINE)*. In general, seasons that culminate in a bowl game will likely be notable. However, not all seasons by teams that participate in college football are inherently notable. Seasons can also be grouped together into articles, depending on available content and interest." WP:CFBSEASON.

Wikipedia's notability standard for single sports seasons says: "Team season articles should consist mainly of well-sourced prose, not just statistics and lists of players. Wikipedia is not a stats directory. It is strongly recommended that those articles be redirected to the team page if no sourced prose can be created." (emphasis in original) and "In cases where the individual season notability is insufficient for an article, multiple seasons may be grouped together in a single article. This grouping might be based on head coaches, conference affiliation, or any other reasonable standard that results in sufficient coverage for the period to warrant an article." WP:NSEASONS.

And yet there are single season articles for Nicholls State from 1972 to 2011.** All have the bare minimum of prose, just the intro sentence, the coach, the field, the conference, and the season record. The only sources used for these articles are media guides and foxsports.com listing of schedules. There are zero reliable, independent sources with substantial coverage of the season. By the standards of this project and the guidelines of Wikipedia, none of these articles should exist. Of course, Nicholls State is just an example. I'm sure there many more like it.

Now, I know this project has a fetish with creating season articles. Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Season articles campaign. And I'm not expecting many articles to be deleted as a result of this. But maybe the project can come to a consensus to stop creating such articles and use actual policy guidelines in deletion discussions. Perhaps the project can work on merging the ones that exist into groups of seasons - provided that there are reliable, independent, significant coverage of the group of seasons.

* Routine says "Routine events such as sports matches, film premieres, press conferences etc. may be better covered as part of another article, if at all."

** Most of the more recent ones aren't any better, just longer. The only sources are about the coach changing.

The project has done amazing work, congratulations. And I am completely in favor of season articles for programs that receive significant coverage. But I think it has gone a bit too far in this regard. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 19:35, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree here. Not all team seasons are created equally. Why not have single season articles only for FBS teams? Or for teams currently in FBS? I don't know why we're creating season articles for the Little Sisters of the Poor when programs like Ole Miss only have half their seasons accounted for. Lizard (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Simply put, WP:NOHURRY, and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. Long version if it can pass notability, and can be well structured include it. If it doesn't we need to discuss it. I really don't care if Nicholls has a season and Ole Miss doesn't (yet!) as long as we do it right. By no means am I or the editor who created it, saying that NSU is MORE important than Ole Miss. But frankly somebody wanted to make it. But I am tired of all of the "basic cookie cutter (blah blah bare minimum stuff)" and declaring "Mission Accomplished." Waiting for an editor in 2067 to fill it out with stuff we easily could have done but didn't in haste to crank out something.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:05, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

While I'm personally not a fan of WP:NOHURRY (since it somewhat defeats the purpose of the article importance rating system), I do agree that quality should take precedence over quantity. Which is the main reason I haven't taken part in the season articles campaign. I'm never satisfied with the "bare minimum." This bare minimum approach has resulted in countless AfDs of team season articles over the past couple years. Lizard (talk) 01:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

NOHURRY is an essay and NOTCOMPULSORY has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is notability. "if it can pass notability" Exactly. Single season articles are NOT presumed to be notable. So, reliable, independent, significant coverage is needed to prove a season is notable. That means the coverage has to be added to the article at its creation. (BTW, Lizard, loved the LSP reference. My pee-wee football coach constantly told us we couldn't beat the sisters, but we never got the chance to prove him wrong.) - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 02:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

There's no current policy or guideline that says the sources that prove notability have to already be in the article. Per WP:DEL-CONTENT: "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page".--Bagumba (talk) 09:09, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

There is a current policy that is directly on topic for this discussion about the notability of articles, which is the WP:NSEASONS that people arguing against my points ignore. Season articles are not presumed to be notable. Notability can only be shown, it can't be simply talked about. And it is shown by reliable, independent, significant coverage. If I brought a particular page to AfD by challenging its notability, then that notability must be proven by showing the sources. You don't get to just say I think its notable, we have time to improve it, other articles exist, etc. Those arguments are just excuses to create and then abandon non-notable, stats-based articles. Which is exactly what has happened here. On your quote about editing policy, first it is not about the notability of the article. It's just a pretty milque-toast prescription to avoid bad deletions. Second, that is a very big "if" and it can't just assumed to be true. Just above that sentence, a listing of reasons for deletions says "#8 Articles whose subjects fail to meet the relevant notability guideline." That's the point I'm trying to make. To say again, I'm not looking to delete scores of articles, and agree that national power FBS teams deserve all their seasons to have articles and maybe even all FBS teams. What I am arguing is that the season creation project has gone way overboard, has completely ignored clear policy, and should be reigned in. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 11:48, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

My contention was that your 18 November statement of "That means the coverage has to be added to the article at its creation." is incorrect. I did not state that seasons are inherently notable. There is no question a lot of AfDs could be avoided if the sources that demonstrate notability were already in the article; however, there is no current requirement for that to happen. Blindly nominating those types of articles for deletion would not be in the spirit of WP:BEFORE. They should be nominated if research finds them to be non-notable. Of course, anyone who regularly mass creates non-notable articles risks being hit with a WP:TBAN.--Bagumba (talk) 13:45, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

NCAA Division I football team season articles are notable. It's been taken to AfD, and it's been proved notable time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again. Media coverage of the games these teams play basically always exists, whether it's currently in the articles or not. The only exceptions I can think of are season articles for sub-NCAA D-I teams, or historical seasons for extremely small and obscure colleges. And, when cases like these have come along (like here and here), the members of this project have had no problem deleting or merging those types of articles as warranted. Also, I would say that WP:CFBSEASON is well out-of-date, does not represent the project's current line of thinking on this issue (i.e. encouraging the creation of "group" season articles like Arkansas Razorbacks football, 1900-1909, which have been all but exorcised from the encyclopedia within the past year or two), and is badly in need of revision. Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:50, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Bagumba, I'm not talking about blindly nominating articles for deletion, but getting this project to acknowledge policy WP:NSEASONS. Not inherently notable means that research should be done to prove they are notable before creation, not creation first and then requiring research to prove they are not notable. Of course people are mass creating season articles, so why doesn't this project police their own and stop the problem? - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 18:09, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Ejgreen77 (talk · contribs), I'm not talking about current FBS teams' seasons. I think seasons of historic programs and those in FCS and lower should be taken case by case. Lots of these seasons are notable, but before creation, editors should heed this policy: "Team season articles should consist mainly of well-sourced prose, not just statistics and lists of players. Wikipedia is not a stats directory. It is strongly recommended that those articles be redirected to the team page if no sourced prose can be created." Starting with the team page and then working out to groups of seasons and then single season articles should be the standard practice, not creating every season and waiting for a wikipedia gnome to go around adding significant coverage to show notability. While not neccessarily disagreeing on any keep decision you link to, I do note that WP:NSEASONS was never mentioned in any of them. Routine coverage always exists of all football seasons, but that doesn't count for anything in determining notability. There are hundreds of articles on sub FCS, historic programs, and small and obscure colleges. That's the problem. Here's an example, Detroit Titans football, chosen as a important program over two years ago. The team article is cookie-cutter prose, lot of stats, and only three sources: the branding guide, NCAA record book, and an NFL draft listing. There is not even a single line of text explaining why the program was shut down in 1964. What is the point of creating over 50 season articles for this program just because they won a national championship in 1928? I'm curious as to your suggested revisions to the project's essay WP:CFBSEASON. Is the project moving single season articles to groups of seasons articles, and groups of season articles to team pages? - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 18:09, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I fully agree that several of the programs listed here under "Historically important programs" are suspect. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of criteria for inclusion there other than people's personal feelings about the importance of the program. In terms of routine coverage, please see this: What is and is not routine coverage. As far as CFBSEASON, I would revise it to say that NCAA D-I seasons (FBS & FCS) are notable. Sub-NCAA D-I (NCAA D-II & D-III, NAIA, etc.) seasons are notable only for national championship teams. That would bring it up to date for what the reality is on how we are doing things on the project today. Ejgreen77 (talk) 18:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Great, sounds good, and I agree. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 23:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that there are a number of programs included as historically significant that probably don't warrant that title, but the Detroit Titans are not such a case. Aside from being recognized by Parke Davis as the co-national champion for 1928 (see 1928 Detroit Titans football team), they were a major program for decades, with Gus Dorais and Dutch Clark serving as head coaches for many years (Lloyd Brazil was also a player and AD for many years), a number of All-Americans (including CFHOF inductee Vince Banonis), Al Ghesquiere leading the NCAA in rushing in 1940, Ted Marchibroda going on to a lengthy NFL career, and the program's membership in a major conference (the Missouri Valley Conference) and conference championships in 1949, 1953, and 1955. I have done the research and can verify that the Detroit Titans football teams did receive substantial, non-trivial coverage before the program was disbanded in the early 1960s. Cbl62 (talk) 19:59, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

• Forget AGF this is extortion because he wants his 1992 external link. It may be a valid conversation but the pretext matters See here.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh my word. You've got to be kidding me. @Jweiss11: makes a joke and I respond and now it's extorsion. Get over yourself. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 23:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I'd still say FCS is a stretch. Nicholls is FCS. If you can find non-routine sources and write significant prose for 1983 Nicholls State Colonels football team I'd consider changing my mind. Lizard (talk) 23:24, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Finding the sources is one thing, but accessing them may be another matter entirely. A quick search of newspapers.com turned up what look like many articles from 1983 in Louisiana papers about Nicholls State football, but they're all paywalled (and at the level that the Wikipedia Library accounts can't access). I suspect this is the case with pre-2000s seasons for a lot of teams; plenty of media coverage, but most of it's in sources that are hard to get at these days. TheCatalyst31 ^{ReactionoCreation} 00:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Sources for the 1983 Nicholls State Colonels football team [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] (This one is the same article, it stretched to two pages. [15][16]) WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Only the first two look beyond WP:ROUTINE, and barely. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 01:58, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Right, and most of them are from local papers. You could probably find similar coverage of upper division high schools in the state. Lizard (talk) 02:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

• I fear this whole thread is my fault. Pretty sure I was the one to add the "historically important programs" with the intention of adding those neglected, former major and maybe a few minor programs. There was no FBS and/or FCS in those days, but that seems analogous. If they happen to be Division III or NAIA or something obscure today, I would emphasize that they are under the "historically important" section because of their history. Say NYU doesn't even have a football team today. There were some recent AfDs for those in the Minnesota section, which was one of the hardest ones to do. I was motivated to create articles for Hamline and Carleton because according to some research about the first game in each state, both are some of the very oldest football teams. Cake (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

It isn't on my part. The problem isn't just former great powers with defunct or small division teams today. Those are probably a minority of the questionable seasons created. Sorry Chico State, but the Wildcats have always played in Division II type conferences and were never a national football power. I did get interested in this issue due to Hamline and Carleton's first season articles. I'm a Carleton football grad, which is how I noticed the article in the first place. I was very curious about why there was template full of red-linked season articles for Hamline, a Division III school with a one sentence tautology for a football team article.

The List article you linked is a perfect example of the right way to document the minor points of early collegiate football. That info is truly notable and the form it is presented in provides a ton of knowledge without clicking on tons of links. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 16:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Cbl62 weighs in

As the initiator of the season article campaign, this is a topic I would normally weigh in on more thoroughly, but I am traveling for a month in South America without reliable access to Internet except on rare occasions, of which this is one. My views as follows:

• We should at a minimum have a presmumption of notability for all historic seasons of Division I FBS football programs. As Ejgreen noted, the basis for such a presumption has been established in multiple AfDs.
• Below the FBS level, there are many current and historical programs where season articles make sense. However, I am not sure that a presumption of notability is warranted for lower levels, including FCS. In such cases, the article creators should take the time to ensure that there is adequate, non-trivial coverage to support the creation of the articles.
• I concur in Lizard's comments about the lack of complete runs for top level programs, including many Power Five schools. If people are looking for ways to contribute, I would suggest picking a Power Five team to complete.
• I agree that WP:CFBSEASON is outdated and needs revision.
• As for the concerns raised about the mass creation of "half ass" season articles, I also sympathize. Many seem to think that one sentence of prose with a schedule table is adequate. In keeping with the notion that Wikpedia is not a stat book, we should be more focused on prose than regurgitating a schedule table that is already available on many other web pages. IMO a recommended minimum for article creation should include the following basic information set forth in prose: (i) the team's record for that season (including conference record where applicable), (ii) the name of the head coach and the year of his tenure in that position, (iii) where the team finished in national rankings, if applicable, (iv) where the team ranked in its conference, if applicable, and (v) the results of any bowl game, where applicable. At the next level of importance (not essential to article creation but nice to see), I would rank (vi) identities of players winning major awards, including Heisman and All-America, (vii) where available, the team's statistical leaders in rushing/passing/scoring (readily available on SR/College Football for the past 60 years for most programs), (viii) identity of team captain(s), and (ix) totals of points scored and points allowed.

Those are my general thoughts. Cbl62 (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Again, I'll just stipulate that all FBS season articles are notable. For historic, FCS and lower, this is well and good, and I agree with Cbl62's general thoughts, ... but. Everyone in this thread fails to even mention actual WP policy, WP:NSEASONS. It states explicity and emphatically that seasons articles should consist mainly of well-sourced prose. If articles hit all nine of the above points (that is they are nationally ranked, played in a bowl game, and have major individual awards in addition to statistics), then an article should be mainly prose. And luckily, all of those nine things can usually be sourced fairly easily. But, the WP policy requires them to be well-sourced, meaning they have citations, not just that the citations exist. The other point I would like to see discussed is a guideline to work from team article to group-of-seasons articles to season articles. Of course, there are some seasons that could get an article right away, such as the 1928 Detroit Titans football team. But in general, and to prevent someone from creating articles for 74 seasons of Chico State Wildcats football (which doesn't even have a team page!!!), I would make the following suggestion for CFBSEASON: require the team's article to be at least of start quality before groups of seasons articles are created. And require several groups-of-seasons articles to be start quality before every season in the program's history is created. Sound reasonable? - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 02:29, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Here's another procedural idea. Create a "List of X football seasons" article before creating all the season articles. If you want to see a great example of how season articles should look, head over to List of Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball seasons. A couple of random seasons, 1910-11 Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball team, 1932-33 Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball team, and 1969-70 Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball team. It looks like they have a great resource to draw from, Georgetown Basketball History Project, but they used the resource really well to write prose. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:34, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

In response to Mnnlaxer's above points:

• As Bagumba noted above, there is no requirement that articles be fully sourced before they are created. Nor is there any policy basis for a rule that several articles in a similar class must reach "Start" level before others can be created. I would favor an attempt to establish "recommended" elements for article creation, but I see no reason to alter Wikipedia policy to create new restrictions on article creation.
• As for WP:NSEASONS, bear in mind that NSPORTS (of which NSEASONS is part) is an inclusive standard intended to identify topics where a presumption of notability is appropriate. Topics that don't meet the NSPORTS standards may still have articles if WP:GNG is satisfied. My suggestion is and has been that a presumption of notability is warranted for all historic seasons played by programs at the FBS level and that lower level programs can still support season articles so long as GNG is satisfied.
• NSEASONS applies to all college sports, not just college football. Most college sports in the US (field hockey, lacrosse, water polo, cross country, tennis, golf, soccer, etc.) don't receive sufficient coverage to warrant the same systematic approach with single season articles. However, college football is in an entirely different league when it comes to coverage (indeed, even for the first four or five decades of the NFL's existence, college football received more extensive coverage than the NFL), and season articles for college football seasons are far more likely to pass WP:GNG than any other college sport.
• As for Chico State Wildcats, I previously ran a couple test cases and found the articles to be borderline, but within the realm of reason, when it comes to WP:GNG. See, e.g., 1953 Chico State Wildcats football team where I did some quick, preliminary investigation and found press coverage that appears sufficient to pass WP:GNG, some of which was added to the article. Rather than attacking Ocfootballknut, I'm inclined to applaud their diligence in spending several months creating articles that go beyond mere one-sentence stubs and which fill out a realm of college football that has not previously received this type of systematic, comprehensive, and encyclopedic treatment. Cbl62 (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough. My suggestions are just that, a rule of thumb rather than a policy. I disagree about Chico State, but I apologized to Ocfootballknut. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 16:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, can't resist. The 1953 Chico State refs are all WP:ROUTINE coverage. Very unlikely it would pass WP:GNG. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 07:06, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree to disagree. Cbl62 (talk) 12:06, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Info on D-III football

Hey guys, hope you had a great thanksgiving and are enjoying the final games of the season. I just cleaned up the NCAA Division III article and it had some overly detailed info on D-III NFL draft picks and starting dates of new D-III football programs. I parked the info here: Talk:NCAA Division III#Parked section on D-III football. Maybe somebody wants to use it somewhere. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 06:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

NCAA Color Templates

In the labyrinth of NCAA infoboxes, I found at least three different color styles being used across Wikipedia. Those are:

     005EB8 in Module:College color/data (mostly from the last three years)

     0064A8 and      0065A8 used across various templates.

Which one is supposed to be implemented for which years? When was there a color change? Cards84664 (talk) 23:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Corkythehornetfan: As our resident expert on color coding, do you have any idea about this?UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:13, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Cards84664: Are you talking about navboxes? If so, #005EB8 is the color used by the NCAA Divisions I and III and Division II uses #0079C2     . I just didn't have time implementing it throughout all of the navboxes and forgot about it. Not sure when the color change for the NCAA happened, but I'd just go ahead use the module in all of the NCAA templates. Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 04:40, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Yep, navboxes. Cards84664 (talk) 13:14, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Cards84664: Then yeah, go ahead and use the Module template. I'm not sure who was inserting those colors when the templates were created and only recently (about two months ago) were the NCAA Division I thru III added to the Module for those templates. Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Sports rivalry study - propriety as source

I'm cross-posting for more eyes a query I received on my Talk page last night. The discussion centers on a set of additions to certain sports rivalry articles (example here). The additions didn't appear to be reliably sourced (as well as a bit spammy) and I undid a series of them in October. Anyhow the posting editor has asked perfectly reasonable questions about it and I figured it made sense to throw the issue open for broader discussion. (IMHO the project doesn't meet WP:SOURCES and WP:RELIABLE but maybe I've missed something.) Thanks for any and all comments.

Hi John,

I am a college student working on an Independent Study centered around sports rivalry research, known as the Know Rivalry Project. The purpose of our research is to gain an understanding of fan perceptions of sports rivalries. A little over a month ago, I created an account and made edits to a series of college football rivalry articles that cracked our top 10 rivalries according to our research. The edits/additions to the posts were removed due to them appearing to be for promotional purposes. Please know that was not the intent of my professor and I. We believe that our research has value, and that it would be interesting to fans reading about the rivalries.

We would like to post the additions about our research again, and we have edited the section I would be adding to remove any appearance of the posting being for our personal gain. Again, we just think that fans reading the articles would find the information interesting. Below, is the edited piece that I would be adding. Would you mind reading it for me and letting me know if it would be acceptable? I just don't want to post all of them again and have them be removed, or action taken against my account. I've also included the citation that will be used in the post, as this research is peer-reviewed, and for academic purposes.

Edited post detailing the rivalry research for the Top 10 most intense rivalries, according to our research:

In a survey of thousands of fans, the [Team1] versus [Team2] rivalry was ranked as the [ranking in most intense or most unbalanced list] in college football, with [most intense or most unbalanced rivalry mentioned] topping that list. The study was operated by students and faculty at Northern Kentucky University, and measured fans' perceptions of rivalries by providing survey respondents with 100 "rivalry points" to allocate across their favorite team's opponents (Tyler & Cobbs, 2017). Specifically in this rivalry, [Team allocating most points] fans allocated [#] of their possible 100 points to [Team2], while [Team2] fans reciprocated with [#] of their 100 rivalry points towards [Team1]. **By aggregating the mean rivalry points allocated by each team's fans within a rivalry (200 points maximum sum; [sum] in this rivalry), the survey results allow for a comparison of the intensity of rivalry feelings within a matchup and across teams' opponents.

Please forgive the unedited portions, of course I would include the information such as teams involved in any post I make.

This is the edit to the above for the Top 10 most unbalanced rivalries, according to our research (all the rest will remain the same):

By computing the difference in the mean rivalry points allocated by each team's fans within a rivalry ([difference] in this rivalry), the survey results allow for a comparison of the balance of rivalry feelings within a matchup and across teams' opponents.

Finally, here is the citation we will be using:

Tyler, B. D., Cobbs, J. (2017). All Rivals Are Not Equal: Clarifying Misrepresentations and Discerning Three Core Properties of Rivalry. Journal of Sport Management, 31 (1), 1-14.

Again, I appreciate your help. We would love to add this information about our rivalry research to these articles, and we hope (my professor and I) that you can help us make sure we do so while staying within the Wikipedia rules. Thanks!

Lukena4 (talk) 05:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

JohnInDC (talk) 12:10, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

I've seen this site before. I don't think there's reason to believe it's not reliable. But there's WP:PRIMARYSOURCE concerns. A google search of "Know Rivarly project" brings up very little (if any) results for it being discussed in reliable secondary sources. So at the moment they seem to be relatively obscure; we're not talking FiveThirtyEight here. I say either leave these edits out, or limit them to maybe one or two sentences instead of dedicating a whole section. Lizard (talk) 14:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

First, thank you for being so thorough regarding sources. That is great to see on the back end of Wikipedia and makes me think about reconsidering criticism of my students' frequent use of Wikipedia as their source (though they could/should seek original sources, as I'm sure you would encourage as well). As you may have guessed, this is LukenA4's professor composing this reply with him (student). I (NKU professor) am replying in the hope that we can clear up a potential miscommunication regarding the Know Rivalry research data and results. The study is NOT a student's independent study. A small part of his (LukenA4)'s independent study is to make the project's results publicly available. The study itself was undertaken over the course of a couple years to gather data via survey from over 10,000 sports fans. The study's method and academic findings have been published or is in-press (accepted for forthcoming publication) in several peer-reviewed research journals, including Journal of Sport Management (2017, v. 31, issue 1, pg. 1-14), Soccer & Society (doi.org/10.1080/14660970.2017.1399609), and Sport Marketing Quarterly (two articles in forthcoming December edition, one of which used the 'rivalry points' method as an independent variable in demand estimations of sports games). LukenA4 sourced his posts with the citation for the Journal of Sport Management article because that peer-reviewed publication explains in depth the methodology undertaken for the study, while also offering the academic findings regarding three core qualities of rivalry itself. Beyond these peer-reviewed publications, the findings specific to teams have been featured in over 30 media stories (secondary sources) including the Wall Street Journal, Slate, Fox Sports and even Tell Me Something I Don't Know (TMSIDK) by Freakonomics coauthor Stephen Dubner. The full list of these secondary features is available at knowrivalry.com/media/ We fully understand and appreciate your scrutiny for this type of work, but hopefully this information alleviates many of your concerns about the quality and broader dissemination of the work. Lastly, please note there is no monetary promotional purpose here. Know Rivalry has no revenue purpose and is strictly academic (no advertising on the site) for dissemination of data for use by other researchers or the general public. Actually, this line of research started when a faculty colleague of mine and I were frustrated with the lack of cross-sectional, empirical quantitative research focused on rivalry. Hence, we designed and started the Know Rivalry Project and have sought to include students in the research journey where possible/appropriate. Thank you for considering our work to add to the knowledge surrounding this fun and often-debated topic!

Lukena4 (talk) 21:02, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. There are people here who try to keep things close to sources, and make sure that the sources are sound - it's Wikipedia's policy after all - but there are so many pages that it's pretty easy for junk to work its way in, and (sometimes) stay for a good long while. Nature of the beast I guess. As to this project, I have to observe that Wikipedia really isn't intended as a vehicle for publicity or "spreading knowledge" or anything like that - really what we try to do is to summarize things that other, established, reliable sources have already said about a subject, things that are already knocking about and warrant mention here. The comment above may help illustrate the problem in this case. Just assuming for a moment that the underlying research is sound, and peer-reviewed, and undertaken by competent practitioners and all the rest - well, it's still obscure. I know it's been covered in a lot of places but really it's kind of a one-off item in each case, a kind of "look at how our [local] fans think of [our rival's] fans". It just strikes me as, I dunno, spotty. And again Wikipedia isn't the place to leverage the viewership into an expanded audience; indeed if a student's purpose is to publicize something that seems under-publicized - well, Wikipedia's precisely the wrong place for that. The entries here come after that's been done, not before it. Now - all that being said, that's just me talking, and with your explanation, I hope other editors will weigh in and we'll see what the consensus is. Thanks for the note! (Oh PS. You really need to create your own account. They frown on multiple uses of the same account here and as harsh as it may seem, your student's account may wind up blocked for even an innocent transgression.) Let's see what others say. JohnInDC (talk) 22:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Source of article : Wikipedia